Why SEO No Longer Works: How to Get Found in the Generative AI World | Saurabh Doshi, OptimizeGEO

Russ Fordyce 🏆 (00:01.071) Welcome back to the winner circle, everybody. Today, I am here for a personal pet project of mine with Sharab Doshi of the co-founder of Optimize Geo. They are transforming how we get found online. And this is such an important topic in this generative AI world. Sharab, welcome and congratulations on the AI Excellence Award. Saurabh Doshi (00:20.824) Thank you. Thank you. Thanks, Ross. Thanks for the award. And I'm super excited. And thanks for having me on this chat. Russ Fordyce 🏆 (00:29.029) Well, I had very little to do with it. The judges picked you. had, think in AI excellence, we had over 400 judges score all those nominations. And so you couldn't be more thankful to all of them for volunteering their time and expertise, but they were very clear that Optimized Geo is on the forefront of this topic. And so before we get too detailed, why don't you give us a little bit of background about Optimized Geo and kind of what it is. Saurabh Doshi (00:52.662) Yeah, sure. you know, I'm one of the co-founders of Optimize.geo with Kirtika Reddy, who's my other co-founder. I'm based in Oxford, UK, and she's based in US. We started last year and yeah, it's been fun doing it. So essentially the single line kind of headline is that, you know, lot of businesses are seeing their search either going down or not kind of having the same results through Google search. And that's where we wanted to solve this problem, because consumers are more and more going to LLMs, chat GPT, perplexity, cloud, Gemini, to search for answers. And brands really do not have much insight or data about what LLMs are surfacing, whether the brands are appearing or not appearing, what are the sources. So what we wanted to really do is democratize the whole space, bring all the brands on par, give them enough data, have them so that they have a great understanding and they can solve for really understanding what the consumers are searching and also give consumers the best kind of results. So that's Optimized Jio for you. Russ Fordyce 🏆 (02:11.301) Yeah, and so for the marketing gurus out there and the webmasters, we used to call this SEO, search engine optimization. But I don't know about you, I haven't done a Google search in quite some time where I actually got a Google search result. I'm now Google searching and getting Google AI results, or I'm using Cloud or ChatGPT. And it's a completely different set of answers, isn't it? Saurabh Doshi (02:36.11) Yeah, mean, absolutely. So if you today go and search on Google, you will often find that lot of traditional legacy big brands come in the search. And it's very obvious, right? They have mastered the SEO, the keywords. They've spent a lot of money to get there. And oftentimes, newer, smaller brands don't pop up. But in LLM world, we are seeing very different kind of data sets. When I myself go, we see through our tool, LLMs give a lot of different answers than what a Google search would traditionally give. In fact, you'll be surprised, Raj, that even Gemini gives or AI, Google mode gives different answers. And so what we essentially are able to do is capture those and give brands great intelligence. We have a subscription model which is not really expensive. And so we try to have SMEs sign up and give them at a reasonable cost, a lot of data and get them really democratized the space and get them to par with bigger brands as well. So that's kind of what we've been observing is that the results are very different. And this is a space where every brand, think, in the world, whether big or small, really needs that deep understanding about what consumers are searching and what LLMs are kind of answering about. Russ Fordyce 🏆 (04:03.087) Now, I want to step back for a second because you're one of those founders that's really, you've seen it all pretty much. You've seen all these major technology transitions from web to mobile, social media, the creator economy. You're at Facebook for years and years and emerging markets. When you look at this generative AI today, where does it rank among all those shifts? Saurabh Doshi (04:26.766) I think this is probably the biggest. And yeah, you're right. I've been in this space for two decades, all the way from literally like 2000s when internet was happening and we were all kind of creating websites to being in Facebook for a long time, almost a decade, going through social changes like mobile. Even in YCOM, I was making OTT platforms back in the day, 15 years back. I also ran a company which was into blockchain space, so did that for a while. But this one seems like the biggest kind of revolution or change ever in technology. And the interesting thing is that we are at a place where in earlier revolutions, a lot of infrastructure was kind of getting set, right? And so it was harder for individuals to go and play a part. But now if you think of the You all have laptops, you all have internet, we all have phones, you know, we, and so all of this technology are at disposable or at, you know, for every individual to really create very quickly and, and, and adopt it and not only like adopt, but even, you know, for entrepreneurs to really jump into and have, if you have an idea these days, you, really can create yourself, right? You can create the platform, the tech, you know, the website, the agent, whatever you call it. And so that is like the biggest, I think, difference between earlier technologies and this transformation. This is like massive. This is going to be the biggest revolution the human kind of ever seen. Russ Fordyce 🏆 (06:05.945) Yeah, I agree with you. Now, as a marketer, know, we are always worried about, you know, awareness, discovery. It's, you know, it's what we strive for, you know, and in most of the marketing world, you look at organic versus paid, you're trying to really ramp up that organic search or that organic discovery so that you don't have to rely on the paid discovery and the ads and all that stuff. So most people think those Google search results are really kind of still what's at kind of the root of discovery for people. What's fundamentally changed when AI starts giving answers instead of showing links? Saurabh Doshi (06:42.018) Yeah, I think the fundamental difference is how the AI platforms are set. I mean, they're not kind of, they are all subscription model or free model. And they're not kind of really around an ecosystem where brands are spending to get on top and have those links come up. Or it's like, mastering the keywords or kind of, you know. doing those things. And so this environment is very different. The other big difference is that really there are multiple platforms. In a search world, Google almost had all of the monopoly. And it was a very good ecosystem where they had created this whole way of surfacing on the first page. And it was so important for the brands. And so now in this system, The big difference is how each model is trained, how each model kind of scrapes data, surfaces things, and even kind of understands a person's profile or persona and really surfaces the answer. And that is kind of very interesting for marketers to understand. And so at Optimize.geo, for example, we also kind of create all these profiles and personas and give marketers very deep insight about, this is like the queries. These are the kind of volumes and even like personas, even motivation behaviors and intents. And so that kind of becomes really interesting data for marketers to make decision. And as you rightly said, know, like every every aspect of the funnel we are able to cover and all the way to giving like very good recommendation as to what needs to be done. Russ Fordyce 🏆 (08:34.831) Well, so it's this new concept. It's in the title of your company named Geo. It was a new concept to me when we first talked. just out of transparency, I'm a customer on the platform. I really love it. I think I was one of the first to be in it. And it's changed so much, which we'll get into in a moment. But this concept of Geo, or generative engine optimization, how is it fundamentally different from traditional search engine optimization? Saurabh Doshi (09:04.236) Yeah, search engine really worked on keywords and links and indexing some of these pages, right? While geo is a very kind of different concept where LLMs are in some way like super intelligent understanding the intent behind the queries. And so it's kind of, you can go and ask an LLM a question in 50 different ways, but you know, the intent is the same or you can go and ask in 50 different languages, but the intent is the same. And so the answer will again, you know, be the same. And so having this intelligence built in where the LLMs are able to understand what the intent behind is the fundamental difference, I would say, from earlier search word, which was like just mastering keywords. And of course, there are similarities in both. And I would say that they are complementary, means that they help each other. But essentially, this is where we built our technology stack, which is like pure play generative engine space, where we trained our model based on intent behaviors. And that's also a technology we've applied for patents. And that's where our core competence comes. It's really giving brands all of the data around the intent of those queries and really be targeted around what consumers are searching and understanding that, not just restricted to keywords, which is kind of the old SEO world. And more and more, as we opened up this conversation rightly, so as you mentioned, searches are either going down or are not actually ending in clicks, which means that it's almost like a zero-click behavior, where consumers are wanting all the answers there and there itself and not wanting to click out or go to a site, which is a very, very fundamental difference in how consumers are interacting with the... Saurabh Doshi (11:17.326) with LLMs and expecting that all of the answers are there itself. I don't really want to click and go out and kind of click seven links and then try to figure out the answer. And then the next phase is where a lot of decisions, including checkouts and other pieces will happen there and there itself. And so it's kind of the whole paradigm is kind of shifting, if you will. Russ Fordyce 🏆 (11:45.126) Well, it is a completely different space. You guys have done really well at signing up kind of new companies, new brands, new agencies. I'm wondering though, when you go into one of these companies, what's their biggest misunderstanding about how their brand shows up in AI generated answers? Saurabh Doshi (12:03.554) Yeah, you know, we've had a great run, I would say. We've signed up many clients globally, including P &G, L'Oreal, WPP, many others. And we work across markets, US, India. And it's been phenomenal to kind of see how teams are gearing up. I think the biggest fundamental kind of thing is that people still think that, you know, if we do SEO, then our geo is taken care of. Or if we are mastering some of these keywords, then we are good. I think the fundamental difference is that, no, it of course is complementary, but it is not an end. You really have to solve for geo. And it's not like if you're doing SEO, it's enough. The second big aspect of this is it's it's kind of just not restricted to solving for a few things or creating content and those kind of things. There are things to be done like partnerships, there are things to be done which are technically even solving things on your side, technical infrastructure, there are things to be done even in terms of the way you're kind of writing your articles. Because we all know right LLMs prefer certain behaviors, which is like, you know a much more FAQ format much more kind of Formats where there are rankings so that you know, the LLMs can answer or or structure the answers really well and so the typical way of even aligning your website or even writing content and though those things are also fundamentally changing and And it's a very interesting time where we are talking about agents now. agents are going to come and crawl your website and make decisions for consumers. And how do you optimize for that as well? So our next phase of real growth is where we are already building all these agents, which are helping brands in their marketing effort and even going. Saurabh Doshi (14:23.224) two step forward is like, know, even writing the content, even posting the content, you know, fixing all of this. And so it's very interesting time to build a lot of interesting technology. Russ Fordyce 🏆 (14:35.173) Well, one of the challenges is that when you guys solve it by querying multiple LLMs, and you're looking across the LLMs at how my brand and my prompts are showing up and giving me that data. But these language models are inherently probabilistic. They're changing all the times. How do you measure something that changes slightly every single time it runs? Saurabh Doshi (15:01.452) Yeah, so in some way you're right that they are changing and they either upgrading their learning or new real life events are happening, which is also changing things. But at the same time, fundamental kind of knowledge is the same. And so we don't see very big changes in very short time. Although it does change over a couple of weeks. If I do a run today and do a run tomorrow, it's not like I'm getting too much different answers. So that's one. The second is that we run hundreds and thousands of queries and then come to a conclusion. So that kind of takes care of if there are any changes or what's kind of the theme behind. So that's the model we build. And really like this is a space where it's not like a one time fix for the brand. It's more like the brand, it's a continuous kind of journey and it's almost like, it's not like you're going to place an advance and done for your life. mean, you have to kind of. engage with consumers, understand your new things. there are many things like topicality, know, consumers behavior change, newer competition comes in, real life events are happening, et cetera, et cetera. And so it's, you know, for a brand, has to be a long-term approach, really not like a one-time fix. Russ Fordyce 🏆 (16:34.863) Well, and you mentioned something earlier about intent and that the Geo's, the Generative Engines, are really looking at the intent of that prompt. And you guys are measuring analyzing those prompts instead of the keywords. And in the keyword world, it was really, let's try to own a keyword. Let's try to get as many links from outside to that keyword. Let's get them to use that link. And so that intent was almost implied. by the kind of wrapper of SEO. And that's, think, what kind of Google was going for is in that, I don't remember even, stack search rank, whatever their patented term was for it. But they tried to almost infer intent. And then it just got gamed, right? And everybody started trying to game it and starting to basically optimize their own results, regardless of Google. Why do you think intent's such a better lens for understanding AI discovery? Saurabh Doshi (17:31.468) Yeah, so one is that, look, there are multiple LLMs in the world, and people are just not using one Google, right? In the search world, it was almost like a single platform. And each of the LLMs indexed on different things, the way they kind of give the results are different. And so that's kind of one fundamental difference we really need to understand. One of the key elements here is that nowhere, this is not so much about gaming the system. It is more about understanding the way consumers are querying and the way LLMs are answering and what are those sources and other things. And for brands, it's really, really important to have that deep understanding. Oftentimes, we have actually surface to brands things which they intuitively never thought about what consumers would be searching about the brand, right? Or even like what LLM would be answering. And yes, I mean, in our product, we also give things like sentiment. analysis, which means like, okay, if LLM has answered something, you know, what's the sentiment around your brand for the particular query. Now we are very clear to the brand that hey, if the product has a problem, then you know, we can't fix that, you know, because we had cases where LLMs were actually genuinely like, you know, giving negative sentiment because of certain product issues. But however, if that is not the case where, you know, there are there are sources where, you know, there were either misinformation or the information was not correctly portrayed and the LLMs are picking that, then it's great for the brands to go and fix it, right? And have it so that they can really, really solve for. And so I think it's less of, guess, for us, it's definitely like not gaming, but it's more understanding as to how, like, you know, what is happening inside that environment. Saurabh Doshi (19:47.562) And when consumers are searching, the brands need to have very definite answers. And it's in the interest of the brands we have seen as like to have those answers themselves, give those answers themselves, rather than LLMs taking it from many other sources, which may not be often kind of speaking the right language or the story with the brand needs to really portray. And that is where our platform is really, really powerful to help brands do that. Russ Fordyce 🏆 (20:16.805) Well, and we've talked about the platform a little bit. What's really interesting to me is that you guys search across almost all of the big platforms. How do you normalize responses when you have all those multiple AI platforms? Saurabh Doshi (20:31.894) Yeah, so we actually cover literally every LLM in the world. And so the brand could come and tell us XYZ, and we would kind of cover it, depending on the use case. The other thing is that when we give our recommendations, we give by platform as well. So oftentimes, we've seen that, the brand is really good on, say, Google AI overview. on chat GPT, the scores are not good. And like I touched upon before, because every LLM is kind of trained in a different way, it gives output in a certain fashion, which it's kind of the algorithms define it. And so what we do is we tell the brand what exactly to be done so that they solve for that particular LLM. So yes, at an overall level, there is kind of a good understanding. at an overarching level as to, you're at a place X, Y, when you're looking at the entire data, but then also drilling down like two levels to say, okay, for this LLM, these are the areas where the brand is really not kind of, or needs to do certain things. And that is the kind of intelligence we are able to. Russ Fordyce 🏆 (21:55.13) Now, I've used the platform, and I think we even wrote up a little case study because we've seen a dramatic shift away from search of people coming to our website, looking for our information. And what we've seen is this dramatic shift away from search and more of this traffic coming from those platforms. And again, as a marketer, we're looking at all of the data. We're not just wanting traffic because we don't want traffic just for traffic's sake because that costs us money and it's You don't want bad traffic. I've seen a lot of your cases where you guys are claiming that the AI source traffic converts a dramatically higher than traditional search. Why do you think that happens? Saurabh Doshi (22:36.428) Yeah, it's a, it's, it, you know, what we have discovered is, that because LLMs have great like contextual data, right? And so what's happening, Russ, is that when I as a consumer go and ask an LLM a question, the one is that, you know, it doesn't give me links. It gives me a very like, you know, good kind of search, researched answer. And it really understands one, again, coming back to the intent of my question, with all the data which it has around me, because it's been interacting with me. And so it knows me really well. Once it gives a great answer, half the job is already done, because I feel like I'm talking to someone who knows me really well. And because of that contextual data which LLM has, and is able to give amazing answers, that's where we see that the conversions or clicks from LLMs are much more higher. Because by the time the consumers have already developed so much trust because of those amazing contextual answers and thought through detailed kind of answers, that it becomes an obvious commerce kind of opportunity. And that's where also if the consumer doesn't even check out what we've seen is that sometimes it's like, know that they haven't kind of taken a kind of decision there. But then they already made up their mind. And so we also see that then they go directly to the site or, you know, there's offline purchase happen, but the decision is really made inside of that LLM environment. And think of this right, I today if I wanted to like buy a car there are so many variables on automobile phone. I mean I would you know think about safety and fuel efficiency and know like taxes and so many maintenance and it's really hard for an individual to really come to one good conclusion but it's become so easy now with LLM to kind of feed and saying hey you know I'm looking for these things and then it understands my kind of Saurabh Doshi (24:56.79) you know, environment that gives a great answer. And so by the time I have made my mind to like purchase a car, by the time I go to the showroom, I think I've already made my mind. And so while, you know, a car manufacturer may think, the LLM came, sorry, the consumer came to the showroom to buy my car and we did a great job. remember, there was already like a lot of research done and the consumer was already like more than half sold. And so that's kind of the power share we're talking about. Russ Fordyce 🏆 (25:27.651) I have spent a lot of time talking to other AI Excellence Award winners. A bunch of them are now in this language space because the LLMs are very good at translating language and looking at intent versus just translating words. Now it's very similar to kind of what you guys are doing, but it got me thinking that, you you have these large global brands that, you know, operate in every language of the earth and every market of the earth or a lot of them. And I think the language has been this kind of massive barrier to companies scaling outside of the United States or outside of their home country. When you think about these global brands and now kind of everybody getting into the multi-brand market, how complicated does that problem become in the geo world? Saurabh Doshi (26:13.974) I mean, like you rightly said, I LLM is a great understanding language and translating and then re-translating back to the user. And so we actually serve brands across the globe. You you'd be surprised, you we serve many, many languages, including... the tougher ones as well, like Arabic. We have clients in Saudi Arabia, we have clients in Thailand, we like in many places. And we kind of have in our tool built in a translator as well. it's pretty interesting that. Sometimes you have these brand managers who understand the language, but then you have an agency which is outsourced and is sitting somewhere else and they don't really read that language. And so we have it so that all the prompts and everything is in Arabic, but we have a translating tool there. So the agency was sitting somewhere else and kind of solving for. is actually like quickly like reading the translation. So it's pretty interesting. And I think it has become really important. Language is really important piece because not everyone in the world speaks or searches in English. And when I used to be in Facebook, we were quite proud about like the hundreds of language we used to or 100 plus we used to kind of operate in. And the same is in this environment. And so with LLMs, that has become really, really easy because they're really good at translating. And we see that we've tested some of these translations and they're really, really good. And we also have spoken to many, many brand managers who work in the market and they kind of always agree that they're very, very precise translations. Russ Fordyce 🏆 (28:11.535) Now, like you said, you were at Facebook for almost a decade. You've been kind of all over as a startup founder, as an operator. So I want to probe you here because you've now built this brand new platform. What was kind one of the hardest technical problems that you had to solve when you were building Optimize GO? Saurabh Doshi (28:31.404) mean, look, Russ, any startup is really hard, right? There are so many things you take a day on day. And even today after serving a lot of clients and having built this platform, I mean, every day is a new challenge. I think that the thing is that technology is moving so fast that just adopting newer things is the hardest thing to do. I mean, remember when we started building this platform, it feels, and that was not so long ago, by the way, but it feels like, that was. Yeah, exactly. Yes, exactly. And that feels like, you know, ages ago, because the way, you know, we, we recorded and, know, we, kind of, you know, our engineering team work was so different, even nine months or a year back. And now it's like so different with. Russ Fordyce 🏆 (29:05.861) Was it nine months ago, a year ago, when we first started talking about this? Saurabh Doshi (29:27.606) some amazing tools and agents and things. And so I think that the hardest thing is actually being just like, just this whole transition and newer newer things coming in and how do we keep up? I mean, you will be surprised how much our platform changes every day, how many features we launch every day. And... And the speed at which we are able to launch it is just crazy. And I think that has been the biggest change we all have been experiencing globally. The way things are changing at pace is just crazy. But it's also real fun. It's like an everyday challenge. Russ Fordyce 🏆 (30:10.821) Well, one of the big problems that we not used to have, but still have maybe is hallucinations and misattribution and fake links. How do you guys distinguish between genuine brand authority and those hallucinations? Saurabh Doshi (30:27.158) Yeah, I mean, and it's gone better, by the way. You know, and of course, you know, the LLM have taken great steps to kind of better it. See, what we do is because we run hundreds and thousands of these queries. So, you know, we have trained our models to kind of look at and see whether, you know, the answers are adding up and as well as kind of, you know, normalize them. And so we are able to kind of even track citations where maybe they were like fake or they were kind of not. in a way which was original or true. And so we've, again, I mean, that was another technical problem we kind of focused on and solved. And so we built these models to really understand and fix those at scale. Russ Fordyce 🏆 (31:13.903) Now, you know, we talked about it earlier. I think my behavior is not far off from a lot of other people. And I've noticed, you know, the people around me who maybe aren't as nerdy and technical, their behavior is changing dramatically because they're not going to that Google search button and they're not clicking it and searching anymore. They're going into Grok. They're going into, you know, chat GPT. So, you you're a Facebook guy. You were at emerging markets at Facebook. All of that is advertising driven, right? And so if AI is replacing search pages. How does the economics of digital marketing change? Saurabh Doshi (31:51.318) Yeah, it's a very interesting question. mean, look, there always will be both organic and inorganic, right? We're not going to come to a place where one is going to replace completely something, right? And even for the LLMs, I mean, we've seen a very clear roadmap to an ads-driven model for scale. and especially with chat GPT opening up in the US ads and and of course, know Google will use it in all of their modes I mean, it's it's it's a very interesting time where brands are kind of you know wanting to have like all of these organic fixes and and grow organically which is which is great as well as you know, there will be opportunities to continue to have inorganic spends because you know they have the there are certain things which they really want to push harder faster in in the right moment in time and so I think those those are going to coexist and you know we see that more and more I think the the way things are done are going to change you know the the places and the assets are going to change but I think you know fundamentally both organic and inorganics will stay. Although I'm very excited about the whole agent tech kind of behavior is coming in, where brands will probably deploy a lot of their budgets to agents to go and kind of plug at the right place. both organic is already happening. are providing agents to brands to kind of go and write out content, post content, fix things on their site. while inorganic agents will also come. like I said, both will coexist. However, the way things are done are totally going to change for sure. Russ Fordyce 🏆 (33:50.938) Yeah. Well, you know, everything's changing. I think we all got very comfortable with SEO. I remember, you know, five, 10 years ago, even, you know, we're hiring agencies. We're looking at it every week. We're waiting for progress. We're trying to climb the ranks. It seems to happen very quickly now with these, with these geo engines and you're looking at days and weeks, not weeks and months and years to kind of move up in rank. As a, as a co-founder and as a marketing, you know, guy, you know, as these teams evolve, what would you kind of tell marketing teams to focus on in terms of, you know, their education and, and development as AI becomes the kind of the primary discovery layer. Saurabh Doshi (34:33.934) Yeah, I think the whole fundamental way of both how we do marketing as well as how marketing teams operate and how brands think about reaching consumers all have changed, frankly, in the last three to six months. More so in the last three to six months. so, mean, our advice is really like, we have to adopt a change. I change is the only constant, mean, things are just changing so fast with one. better analytics data, other execution tools, agents, and the third, way where and how you kind of market your product. And so, I mean, our advice is again, it's like, you've been in marketing for a few years, maybe a good thing to do would be think of a... There's some legacy things which are great, you continue to do. And then keep your mind open to adopting and trying a lot of new things because that's the only way really brands will win. And we've seen a lot of smaller players be very nimble and moving really, really fast. And then the bigger companies are adopting and will have to adopt. That's, think, the fundamental shift we are going through. Russ Fordyce 🏆 (36:03.481) Now you've lived through multiple waves of kind of this technological destruction. You know, we talked about it from web to mobile to social, you know, being it. I remember when, when Facebook was faced with this mobile dilemma, the question was, will Facebook ever be able to, you know, claw their way back into mobile? And it literally was like, like that, right? They launched an app, they were mobile instantly and everybody, you know, took off. For leaders watching this shift happen now, what's the one thing they should start doing today to prepare for that AI discovery era? Saurabh Doshi (36:38.542) Do you mean Facebook or do you mean? Russ Fordyce 🏆 (36:41.229) No, if I'm running a brand, right? If I'm running a brand, what's that one thing I've got to start doing today to get start getting discovered in geo? Saurabh Doshi (36:50.754) Yeah. I mean, first, like, have a good understanding of what your geo ranking or standing is. And with that, I mean, you know, being a founder of OptimizeGio, I would say go to OptimizeGio.ai and kind of get your demo, get your sign up, right, you know? Yes, Absolutely, yes. There's a free audit. There is kind of, you know, a free demo. There is, you know, Russ Fordyce 🏆 (37:09.135) There is a free audit, right? So you can get a lot of information out of you guys for nothing. Saurabh Doshi (37:18.764) We also have pilot programs and all of that. So I mean, the first thing is really like, you know, understanding where your ranking is and where you stand. then, I mean, look, I mean, the fundamental thing is to really understand how consumer behaviors are changing, right? The whole transition of Facebook to mobile was because the consumers were moving. I mean, similarly, you know, for every technology, we'll see like, you know, the biggest thing is really like to understand how consumers are behaving. And, you know, it's a real thing that consumers are not wanting to click. It's a zero click environment. It's a real thing that, you know, contextual data is great. It's a real thing that consumers are wanting all the answers in one place and not having to kind of make decisions. And so... For anyone who wanting to make like this real quick change is to really adopt and kind of have all of that understanding for the brand. And like we said before, mean, SEO search result is very different to what LLM search results are. And for brands to really understand what's happening and then solve for it. And it's a quick solve. I the first... The first lift is within couple of weeks. Of course, you have to continue to do it for a longer time, but at least get to a place very quickly where you are at par with others or where you're at a good standing. And tools like ours almost are built in terms of end-to-end, which is like you get literally it's self-serve and you get everything in one place and we also kind of help you execute all the way almost to the end. so things have, with technology, things have become really, really fast and easy. Russ Fordyce 🏆 (39:17.625) Yeah, well, I would encourage every marketer out there to go into your Google Analytics and start looking at traffic sources because your sources are radically changing. You'll notice some of the AI engines in there. You can build search queries pretty easily. Just ask your favorite AI how to do that. But you'll notice that that traffic really is shifting over time. And the more you're paying attention to it, the more you can start to grab that traffic. It's really, I don't think it's a land grab because it's always changing, but you can certainly be know, at front of market pretty rapidly by just making some very small changes to help the LLMs find your content as Sharab's telling us. Sharab, thank you so much for joining us and thank you so much for participating in the awards program and congratulations again on the award. Saurabh Doshi (40:02.754) Thank you, Russ. It was great to chat. Thank you so much.