Pay First, Collect Later: Rewiring the Electronics Trade-In | Roger Brown

Russ Fordyce (00:01): Welcome back to the winner's circle, everybody. Today I'm here with Roger from Allstate Protection. They are the guys that protect all our goodies, all our phones, our laptops and stuff. They are the latest winners in the twenty twenty six Sustainability Awards for a program they ran with Staples. We're gonna hear all about it from Roger. Roger, welcome to the show and congratulations on the award. Roger Brown (00:21): Pleasure to be here, Russ, and thank you. It's quite quite an honor to win. Russ Fordyce (00:25): Yeah, so d before we get too deep into the kind of that program that was so great for sustainability and and your win, tell us a little bit about all state protection plans and kind of just what you guys do and a kind of an elevator pitch. Roger Brown (00:38): Yeah, you bet. you know, Allstate Rust people you know, think about what they see on TV during college football games, et cetera, about like home and auto. And what people don't realize is inside of Allstate, this Allstate protection plans, we've got a massive business protecting the things people use in their lives, both at home and on the go, right? So and that's everything from mobile phones to laptops to tablets and other consumer electronics. It's also like appliances, furniture. and w and we protect over two hundred million things in the United States, across over forty four million homes. So yeah. Russ Fordyce (01:14): Yeah, and it's those protection plans that save us when we've got a crack screen or you roll over a phone or laptop falls down or something, that's when you go like, thank thank you. Thank you for those insurance plans. I'm in the midst of changing phones now and it's coming with a one of those plans and it's it's just such a lifesaver, especially in this day and age when when the we seem to churn through these devices so quickly. Roger Brown (01:24): Thank you, right? Roger Brown (01:38): And they're and they're so expensive and more often than not, you're on a financing plan. And so it's like, wait, I gotta pay six hundred dollars on that old broken phone just for the right to upgrade a thousand dollar new phone and suddenly, yeah, it makes it hard for people to to get to that next phone. Russ Fordyce (01:46): Right. Russ Fordyce (01:52): Now you're not new to this. You spent two decades at T Mobile doing this kind of same thing, right? Running device and trade in programs and that kind of whole supply chain. That was at a massive, like giant scale as w well, you know, at T Mobile. What did you learn there about kind of why people don't trade in their devices that brought you into this program? Roger Brown (02:11): Yeah, it it's evolved a lot over the last you know decade, Russ, but I'd say, you know, one one, when you just go out and ask consumers, like consumers more and more saying, like, I actually really care about the environment. And when I think about things like smartphones or my or my laptop, right, people want to do the right thing. Like they actually care. and we we're talking about sixty, seventy percent of people in surveys who say like you I I I would like to do something. but the reality even today is probably only about one out of five phones finds its way into a reuse program. so there's this there's this gap. and to your point, I kind of like loosely bucket into a couple things. One is ease and convenience, right? Like people are busy in their lives, and so how do you just take friction out of the process for people? there has been historically a little bit of a trust issue. Like, hey, I got a lot of personal stuff on that device. Cause these things, right? Not only is it my you know, it's my photos, it's my banking app. it's it's all this content and so it's like am I really okay handing this over to to you and and that's gonna not go anywhere. and and then the third is just the incentive, right? So you take friction out of the process, but like how I think the industry has been getting better and better and creating value for customers to incentivize them to want to do it. So I think those are kind of the three big areas that you really need to hit to to get people to to really enroll in it. Russ Fordyce (03:31): Now all states doing protection plans and now this the in the trade in business as well. I think there's a legacy of the trade in business with SquareTrade and everything else. We were talking about that earlier. protection plans and trade ins feel like adjacent kind of businesses or or you know, kind of more separate businesses. When did it become obvious to you that they were more kind of actually aligned and kind of the same business? Roger Brown (03:55): it could probably about a decade ago, back when I was at Team Mobile, and I'd say this from two perspectives, is I think people used to think about trading programs as recycling programs. but then the historically the carriers, right, they always have the latest phone that's on promo, right? Here comes the Apple MPI and get your free iPhone. And I think that's what that's done for consumers is consumers have only more recently with financing started to actually appreciate, I'll call it the value or how expensive these things are. and so the one thing I think is from the retail or the carrier operator, whoever it is, the realization that like hey, a trading program where I actually pay a customer like good healthy money for re for bringing the phone back so that we can reuse it, that actually helps me drive my business as a retailer. Right. Like I I'm putting money into my my cup my customer's pocket. and and I'll fun facts I've seen from around is that usually when you kind of give money to somebody in the store, like they spend 80 cents on the dollar in the store at that moment buying other stuff. So it's you know it's it's the classic win-win-win. So it's a better consumer value. It helps the retailers and carriers drive more customers, more profit for their business, and you get the benefits of it's better for the environment, kind of going through it. So I think that's why we realized the connection point. And then just real quick, Russ, what I'll also say is more and more we're seeing these kind of anytime upgrade programs, which if you think about it is really the nexus of hey, I've been protecting my phone and I trade in my phone, and now here comes an upgrade program that really starts to bring those two things together, because it the tr it basically the return of the phone is built into the product. Russ Fordyce (05:35): Well, it's interesting too, you know, you know, kinda current day, current time and current trend is Apple just announced that leasing program, right? They're moving away from kind of their financing offers into third party leasing. And this it kind of feels like that now with all these carrier phones, is we're really just leasing them and then gonna turn them in in a good condition like we would a car. You know, we were talking about cars earlier before we got on. It's you know, why wouldn't you buy a car with ten thousand miles on it that's three years old? It's it's got ninety nine percent of its life left, you know? Roger Brown (06:04): 100%. And I'd say that even kind of doubles down on the concept because if there's one I'll call it group one group of parties, right? The OEMs and the phone manufacturers, Apple, Samsung, you know, all of them, they're the ones that have maybe the the most conflicts because they live on new device sales. and so the trade-in and to the extent those are getting reused, is that impacting their new phone sales? They're the ones that have probably been the slowest to adopt and fall in love with it. and yet we're seeing them do it, which I really think speaks to the broader trend. Russ Fordyce (06:38): Well and it it's interesting, the leasing the car leasing market went through this as well and and I remember Lexus actually fought it. They fought it by buying all the cars back themselves and then and then releasing or reselling them and they just tried to corner the market, which is also very interesting. Why you know, this is what we want, right? As consumers. We want to know that, you know, these devices with all sorts of nasty chemicals and everything else and take human effort and time and energy and that our Roger Brown (06:50): Okay, exactly. Russ Fordyce (07:08): worth two thousand dollars a year ago, we want those to go on to live somewhere. We don't want to just have that, you know, be sunk capital, you know, gone and flushed down the river or anything. Why has the, you know, kind of trade in process and, you know, this whole industry kind of been so clunky for so long? Roger Brown (07:25): one I think is it's back to ease and just access. So only in the last 10 years have retailers and carriers gotten better of what I call building it into the DNA of every transaction. So most customers don't think I need to go, I need to get up and drive down to you know staples or go to my carrier to trade in my phone. That's not really a thing. They're thinking I want to get a new phone. and so building into the DNA of every time you're selling a new phone or a new laptop or a new tablet tablet is getting getting the associate to ask, like, hey Russ, do you want to trade in your old phone? Because it's right there. and there's and it's now very easy as you make it part of the buy flow to just ask for the trade in and very simply be able to put in that make model and actually show, like, Russ, I can give you four hundred dollars for that phone today. and that I think that's w one real friction point that started to go through. And then I think just generally people have gotten more and more comfortable with all the all all the partners like Allstate and other people who do this are actually really good at making sure that the personal data that's on there. it's been a long time. You know, going back fifteen, twenty years ago, you get those news reports of people buying a new phone and all this stuff that was on it. And that's that's not really a thing anymore because it's gotten so refined. Russ Fordyce (08:46): It happened to me. I bought a I bought a new phone that somebody had returned and there were pictures on it and it was it was it was interesting. Well Roger Brown (08:55): That would certainly give you pause the next time somebody asks you to trade in your phone, wouldn't it? Russ Fordyce (08:59): Right. Well, i y y you mentioned that earlier, the data security issue, 'cause it keeps showing up even in research now as kind of the top reason why people aren't taking their kind of old devices and turning them in. How did you earn trust and how how much of that is kind of a technical problem versus a communication problem? Roger Brown (09:16): You know, back in the day it was a technical or even an operational pro problem. Cause today the reason we don't see that so much today is because devices go through clearing processes multiple times through the process before they go back out into another consumer's hands. I think the hardest part is you can tell people that. But I think we're all always just a little bit skeptical of when a company tells us it's gonna be true. Is it really true? And this is really vital stuff. So I think that's been one where it's really just taken time. in proof and evidence that, yeah, I don't have any friends and family telling me about this problem anymore. I don't hear about it in the news anymore. And I think there's just been a slow building and acceptance, which still isn't a hundred percent to be clear, but you know, more and more people are open to it. Russ Fordyce (10:00): Well, I th I think you guys have actually played a role in this too in companies like yours is because we've gotten familiar with kind of wiping our phones and turning them in for new phones or for credit or whatever. Whereas kind of laptops and computers they seem to age in closets, you know, they don't seem to go back because it's like, how do we wipe that thing? How do you know it's all done? It's it's you know, the c the I guess and you know, Google and and Apple have done a good job of making that kind of process, as you're saying, very easy to do. Roger Brown (10:29): And it and I think phones have been at the forefront of that, Russ, because if you remember like ten, fifteen years ago, a lot of times the questions like, what's the condition of your phone? And it would be like, Does it have does it have a a dent? And it's like, what's a dent on glass? And it's like, well, if you're running your fingernail across it, does it you know, yeah, it's just yeah, now now it's kinda like it's super simple. It's like, hey Russ, does it turn on? That's it. Right? So you know that's just another example of just taking friction out of the process. Russ Fordyce (10:32): Yeah. Russ Fordyce (10:45): Mm. Russ Fordyce (10:50): Yeah. I'm going through it now. Does it turn on and does it have a cracked screen? That's all they care about. Yep. Yeah. So you guys have done this with Staples now. We're talking about taking friction out of the process. Now I don't have to go online, I don't have to do any of that stuff. I can go into Staples. I I think I think I can actually go online, get a kind of a quote, take it into a Staples is even better. From the retailer side, what does a partner like Staples actually need to see before they'll put, you know, their brand on a trade in program? Roger Brown (11:19): Obviously, they need to see this can be a great experience for their associates in store, because it can happen in store, online, and and as well for their consumers. and and Staples has been a fantastic partner in terms of really wanting to be innovative. Russ, I'd say the standard classic trade-in model has always been: hey Russ, your phone is worth $400. and so I'm gonna send you a kit at your home. Put the phone in the kit, send it back to us once we receive it and verify it, then we'll give you $400 through some form or medium. and and that's like that's a rational thing to do. And that's, you know, and a lot of people do it, but not. I think one of the things the staples really pushed us on, which is great and we built, which was how do we do this instantly? And so whether you go online or even if you go into the store, we now give customers the option. You can do it the standard way if you prefer that. but we also, if you're online or in store, we'll go through the same process, get to the $400, and then just say, hey, Russ, can you just give us your credit card? And we're just gonna take a short-term hold on your credit card, but we will give you your money now. and you can use it. And as soon as we get the phone back, we'll release the hold on the credit card. And so we actually give customers the choice. and we it's really interesting, Russ, because I think lot of people have opinions about what they think this is, because we're all different human beings and there's different segments of people out there. But when we have done surveys, it's almost a clean 50-50 split in terms of which process people prefer. And so providing choice really kind of helps serve everybody rather than have, you know, trying to make one size fits all when it doesn't really meet their needs. Russ Fordyce (12:50): It's Russ Fordyce (12:57): It's a really smart move because we're impulsive, right? People are impulsive. And I know I know from you know selling online and our back when I was selling B2B telecom online, talk about a niche market. you know, if somebody entered a form or a know an invitation to call them, you had I think about five minutes to actually get them. Anytime after five minutes, they'd moved on to something else. They didn't answer the phone. And so what you're doing here is really capturing that opportunity. The customer wants to trade in. Roger Brown (13:01): Yeah. Russ Fordyce (13:26): They've got a quote, boom, now I've got a gift card in my hand. I've got seven days to return it. It's perfect, right? It's that impulsive nature. You've closed them, it's done. They don't have to think about it. They don't have to drive in, they'll work it into their schedule. And it's just that customer kind of first thinking that I like to hear and to see, you know, out of these nominations. Roger Brown (13:44): And we in you know, credit to staples, we actually launched the instant first. but then, you know, but then Staples and we both, right, went in and we listened to customers and really understood that it's like, well, it shouldn't be one or the other. We thought we were doing the better thing. It was really that insight, which is like, no, no, no, both is best. And then let customers choose. So it's been fantastic that way. The other thing I'll say on this I was just gonna say quick rest, the other thing that, you know, is is, you know, less Russ Fordyce (14:05): Well, pay go ahead. Roger Brown (14:10): less it's not the only place it's happened but it's less normal is like is the medium is like you know what we do is we give the customer a staples gift card. And so when you go online and you say, hey, I want that instant, give us your credit card info. like we literally email you a staples gift card for that four hundred dollars at that moment. And so you can be in the store like that day buying your new phone or online buying your new phone or whatever else. Right. It's not limited to either right it's not like well once you get to four dollars you can only use it for this. It's like, you know, knock yourself out. Russ Fordyce (14:29): Or online. Russ Fordyce (14:39): No, it's it's it just makes all the sense in the world. It's just all about convenience. Now, what's interesting to me from a business perspective is you're paying before you receive the device, which means you're absorbing all the risk that the customer used to carry. We used to carry all that risk. It was, you know, a million people carrying a little bit of risk. Now you're carrying all the risk. How did you guys have to get comfortable with that? Roger Brown (15:01): you we we just had to figure out the right process and that credit card hold is really all that we needed. And be because today, again, this is something that 10 years ago, a lot of markets, not necessarily the staple markets in Canada, but I'd say some of the US markets were very cash-based economies. but today digital payments has just become so ubiquitous that like being able to sit there and say, like, hey, just give letting us do that hold, we're not actually charging the card. But it gives us the confidence that, like, if the phone never comes back, th we we'll do it there is a recourse to make sure that that you know we don't lose money and staples doesn't. Russ Fordyce (15:37): Yeah. It's it's just an interesting from the buyer's perspective. It's it flips the script on it because you're taking the risk and you know, how do you know I'm not gonna cancel the card or whatever? And it's it's just you take the mess on, which is nice. It's not it's that we don't have to do it, which is great. Anytime a company does that, it's like a a big win. Yeah, what also struck me from your nomination is you went nationwide and across Canada with this and staples, instead of kind of piloting store by store, what made that possible and Roger Brown (15:52): A hundred percent. Russ Fordyce (16:06): And how did you, you know, what tell that you were tempted to do that without kind of, you know, trying it out first? Roger Brown (16:13): It it it really wasn't that big of a leap for us. And obviously working with our our great partners at Staples, it was really like we've we do this stuff at scale today. and so while there were some new nuances, none of this wasn't something we'd done before. We were just pulling the parts together in a different way for to make it a better experience for the consumers. so we had no hesitation to sit there and say, Hey, once once we've got it ready and and the the Staples employees are trained and ready to go. let's let's go big. This has been great. Russ Fordyce (16:46): So on Monday mornings you're looking at all the reports that are coming in. How do you actually measure whether a program like this is working? What are you what are you what are the metrics you're looking at? Roger Brown (16:55): Yeah, kind of back to how you integrate it. Like what we've been able to do with Staples is really kind of sit there and say, let's look at the trade-in. You can just do a trade-in, but we're really interested to see is the trade-in volume as a proportion of the new equipment sale, whether that's a phone or a laptop, et cetera. So again, great partnership with with staples. We're able to align incentives to say, like, hey, if we sell a hundred phones on the 100 phones that Staples is selling. how many have an associated trade-in with it. And that's that's kind of what we use as a combined group to sit there and kind of drive that number north because that's where then we know we're really serving customers best best, maximizing the results for staples and doing the best with the environment. Russ Fordyce (17:39): Yeah. What surprised you once real customers started using it? Something that maybe didn't match what you expected going in? Roger Brown (17:46): So the rest of the one piece is we thought most people would just we thought everyone would just love instant. And so that that was probably the biggest insight, which is like a large segment of customers loved the the instant. And that mean meant that there were people who could get instant who prior couldn't. So they were getting new people doing tradings that hadn't done it before. But what I think the part that we kind of learned as we did that was there's this other segment that still would prefer not like again, different things people worry about, like mm. My credit card and a hold, I'd just rather not. I'm totally comfortable just sending the phone in and giving the money when when when you get it back. And so that I think that was the big insight is it's not one or the other, which has been a debate that I've sat in various rooms over my twenty year career with everybody. And it was so big. We test it, right? Yeah, yeah. And we we did some consumer research and now we're proving it in the real world, which is like both. Give customer choice. That's the easiest way to go. Russ Fordyce (18:31): How do we test it? How do we test it? Run both. Russ Fordyce (18:42): Well, it it's interesting to to see that. So if it's a fifty fifty split, it's you that that security issue is still there, even if it's just a credit card security. It's you know, in the back of consumers' minds. Roger Brown (18:51): Exactly. Exactly. Russ Fordyce (18:53): let's talk about the sustainability aspect of this. You guys didn't just win for a great new business, you know, process and and business partnership. how do you know a traded in device generally got kind of a second life rather than just moving into, you know, a waste pile somewhere? What does that kind of chain of custody look like? Roger Brown (19:10): Yeah. that's part of what we do, even with the Staples program, is we take those devices back, and and that's part of our role is to make sure that they get a second life. Rust Rust is a whole chain of custody of kind of like there's there's multiple places that it can get used. and sometimes there are very like we have partners who say, hey, we actually want to use some of those phones because we'd like to offer second life, right? Certified pre-owned devices. to give our our own customers a less expensive option to get into a new phone. And we happily support that. To the extent that our partners don't have a need for it, then we typically either have other programs that we can use them in or we'll we'll auction them off. But then through the auction process, right, there's a process in terms of knowing who the partners are. Not anybody can get into an auction. You have to go through a process to kind of qualify. And a part of that is the environmental component going through it. But the best part, Russ, through the whole thing is like if you think about the option is there's a financial incentive. Like who would buy a previously loved phone for $300 just to go put it in e-waste? Like that is a massively money losing proposition. So there's a really strong economic incentive that nobody's going to buy a phone that they don't think they can monetize. And the only way to effectively monetize it is through through reuse. Nobody makes money putting phones into waste scrap. Russ Fordyce (20:38): In the land landfill. Yeah. Well an EU's doing a lot of regulation. It's moving kinda quick. Their right to repair rules, you know, repairability, labeling on phones and tablets. Do you see that as a tailwind for the way you've built this or a complication? Roger Brown (20:53): I see 100% is a tailwind. and again, there are so many, so many we are we have so many different types of people in the world. We're all so different that I each of us have a very strong conviction about how what we like. but as you do this and realizing the optionality is the best thing for so many different types of customers. And so there Russ, a lot of times when I'm talking to partners, when you they people start talking about extending the life of a device, they default to That means Russ has to hold on to his current phone longer. Right? Like, you know, Russ can't upgrade every two years, Russ must now upgrade every three years. That's how you extend life. but I think that's a real fallacy. is because hey, if Russ wants a new phone after one year, Russ should go get a new phone after one year. We we want to make it easy for Russ to trade in that phone and we will create the second life and extend the the life of that device with somebody else. And maybe even a third life and a fourth life. And as long as that product and phones are lasting longer and longer. So these lives are truly extending, it's just across multiple owners, kind of like the car example that we mentioned earlier going through it. And so I think that mindset shift that now just kind of real quick bring it back. It's like, do I want to get the new phone and trade in my old phone? if there's something wrong with my phone, there's the option to just get it repaired. and for some customers, that is right, I can get that done today. I don't have to worry about migrating my data over the new phone. I love the I'm perfectly happy with the phone I have. I just want to get it fixed. And so I think again, back into the ecosystem of all the options, that whole right to repair just gives consumers more freedom and flexibility. and we happily support that through our protection programs where instead of paying a hundred and fifty dollar deductible to get a replacement device, you know, we'll we'll we'll only charge you thirty nine dollars to go get it repaired. We and that's great. Russ Fordyce (22:39): Yeah. Better for everybody. Now I think you said it or you talked about it earlier, this this kind of gap between, you know, how many devices are made and how many are actually kind of going back. I think I saw a stat from like Counterpoint. It's it's nearly half. It was like six hundred million kind of idle devices and only three hundred and some odd thousand or three hundred million that kind of got into this reefer pipeline. If you could close kind of half that gap, what would have to change in kind of our industry mindset or consumer mindset? Roger Brown (23:09): I I think we still have to take even further steps in terms of like with the Staples program of like, hey, this concept of the instant versus the traditional method. The traditional method has gotten us this far. I think we'll unlock new people doing trade-ins, whether it's a classic trade-in or whether it's even through an early upgrade program, when they're able to kind of instantly realize the value of that. cause Russ, I think you said it earlier what you said, you know, that we're all have a little bit of impulse in us. and so when you can meet that impulse with yes, then you that we'll do more of that. and then I think part of it is also just the the ongoing consumer education. and a lot of that is I see back to your Apple example, everybody building the trade-in into the product and making it a feature of the product and not an independent discrete choice. I think that will also help drive that. And the more and more people see that, I think little more just becomes natural DNA. And just like any curve, you got your early adopters and your late adopters, et cetera. But I think we'll just continue to see more and more people as we have made it easier and more natural to to do those trade-ins. Russ Fordyce (24:19): Well, and it's it's an economic decision as you've been talking about. You know, it's it there's still value left there. I I think I saw another stat that was something like ninety-one billion dollars of e-waste, and you think about that number, A, what had to go into that number, and now you've got kind of the raw materials of ninety-one billion dollars of e of kind of the materials going into e-waste. There's an opportunity there just from a you know, economic, let alone an environmental impact. Are those kind of the same argument now? Roger Brown (24:48): I I think those are the same argument and and I the one I'd also want to add on top about is a little bit about the affordability, right? Because I think you've seen some of the Tim Cook, Apple CEO, was kind of warning about, you know, chip pricing and and and the rare earths and all this stuff is likely to get more expensive again. And as the new phones get more and more expensive, it's again if the new phone is more expensive, the trade in is gonna be more valuable as well. and customers are are gonna wanna have another financial or an additional financial incentive to do that. Russ Fordyce (25:24): Yeah, and we talked about that EU right to repair. It's really interesting because they're they're saying that these phones have to be, you know, repairable if I think for seven years the the software's usually seven to ten. y I g I guess that makes it fundamentally easier for you guys to refurbish these phones if if needed. Do you expect that trend to come to North America? You know, North America is generally a little bit more hands-off than Europe, but maybe the consumer driving that or maybe it's just gonna come here naturally because Europe's doing it. How what do you what do you feel about that? Roger Brown (25:52): I I do think it will come here. It's a little bit slower. I think it in you know in the United States it's probably gonna be a little bit more of a state by state. I don't necessarily expect the federal government to kind of come in and fix it. So it'll probably be a little bit more of a patchwork quilt that builds out. the good news though is that really the OEM partners, the Samsung's and the Apples of the world, we can partner with them to kind of make them okay with it, right? And they're they're the right to repair is a good thing. but I guess in defense of my OEM partners too, it's like they're not really trying to corner the market. They're just trying to make sure that the repairs that are done on those phones are high quality repairs so that the consumers that are using the devices have a good experience. and that's not a bad intent. and so I guess the good news is like we have no problem anywhere kind of doing that today because we just go with the OEMs workout agreements and get them comfortable that what we do is gonna meet their standards. But I think then for all consumers that then right to repair just afford them even more options. It is a fantastic. Russ Fordyce (26:51): And and as you go into these big partners like you did with Staples, what's the difference between kind of a sustainability program for them that you know, it doesn't just give them something to put in a report, but it's one where their sh you know, kind of associates really start to kind of take it into their culture and start to promote it. Roger Brown (27:08): Yeah, I think the key thing there is it's back to that win-win-win. So, right, if we're if we can do that trade-in, we create an economic incentive for the consumer. No, everybody wants to do the right thing for the environment, but Russ, you know, it's it's the reality of the capitalist society, it's not always the driving reason. But the real piece is that in constructing these programs is that we can definitively show that these trade-in programs help create more customers for our partners. and more more margin for our partners like Staples. And so now the partner also has an incentive. And when when a company like Staples is taking on more margin because they offer programs like this, that also allows them, sometimes it happens, depends on the partner's Bethel and start to incentivize their frontline associates to actually do that. Right. And that's how it becomes part of the DNA. And once it becomes part of the DNA, the incentivizing might be less critical. But the key thing is you know, for example, in a staple store is mean it would just make sure that the associate asks. There's no requirement to do this, but if you don't ask, it may not get you just you just need to get the ask out there. And then a lot of times consumers are like, that sounds awesome. Russ Fordyce (28:14): You never get it. Russ Fordyce (28:20): Well, and it's it's such, you know, from a sales perspective in the sales world, it's such an easy, you know, point to make of you know, of the sustainability aspect, the ease, the prepayment, but let's just take care of it today. It's you guys have really lined it up and congratulations on doing this again and and winning the award. It it really just makes all the sense in the world. You've taken the pain out of it pretty much for everybody, so it is a win win win. So congratulations, Roger, and congratulations to the team. Roger Brown (28:45): Thank you. Really appreciate it, Rush. We're proud of it. and Staples, equally proud of it, has been a fantastic partner and it's really exciting to do good things for customers, the environment and the business. Russ Fordyce (28:58): Yeah, thanks for coming on. Roger Brown (28:59): I appreciate it.