Coley Norman on Liviniti, Human Service, and Building Customer Experience People Remember

Russ Fordyce 🏆 (00:01.73) Welcome back to the winner's circle, everybody. Today I am here with Coley from Lavinity. He is the winner of the executive of the year for the Customer Excellence Awards, Customer Service Excellence Awards. And he is going to walk us through kind of his philosophy on service and how he has transformed this organization into one that is really quite remarkable. And I know it takes a team, but Coley, welcome to the show and congratulations on the award. Coley Norman (00:26.283) Yeah, thanks Ross. Appreciate it. It's an honor to be here and it's an honor to be able to talk about our team here at Livinity. Russ Fordyce 🏆 (00:32.459) Yeah. So before we get into the guts of kind of what you've done and your customer service organization, give us just a little background on Lavinity, kind of what you guys do. It's this is you're not in the most beloved industry in the world. Let's just leave it at that. So just give us a little bit of background on what Lavinity does before we get into kind of how you operate. Coley Norman (00:45.943) Yeah. Coley Norman (00:53.513) Yeah, for sure. Thanks, Russ. Appreciate it. So happy to go into who Livinity is a little bit, just at a thirty thousand foot view, I think will be helpful for the audience here. So let's let's start with what a PBM is. You know, we talk about we throw out acronyms in healthcare all the time, right? And we make assumptions being in healthcare that everybody must know what those things are. So let's for the sake of the audience and for our conversation here today, let's start with what a PBM really is. So a pharmacy benefit manager, a PBM, is one that partners with companies to whether it's to design or or manage prescription drug benefits that ultimately drive safer and appropriate medication use while also driving financial affordability to their members and to their families. And where Lavinity fits in and And frankly, Russ, unlike other PBMs, you know, we've been doing this for a long time and we've been doing it transparently for a long time since 2011. We were actually founded by two pharmacists. We were built and frankly continue to maintain a fully passed-through model for those that we partner with, which is certainly something that you hear transparency today in the market, especially in the PBM market a lot. We we actually started with being a transparent company back in 2011, which is something I was just really proud to to mention with you all today. But ultimately, what that means is that instead of contributing to an already complex healthcare landscape with multiple fees or or even sometimes rest concealed fees, we charge a simple and straightforward admin fee that covers our standard services. That way it's easily understood, it's easily digestible. and frankly, something that really resonates with the marketplace and and across all the healthcare landscape. And because Lavinity recognizes transparency and pass-through pricing, that's ultimately what drives meaningful savings and client outcomes. And like I said, we've really built upon that foundation that Dr. Steve and Lee Ann Boyd have just done a phenomenal job based out of Nackych, Louisiana. And now we have that national footprint and continue to grow at a rapid Coley Norman (03:07.957) an appropriate pace. It's very exciting thing to be a part of. Russ Fordyce 🏆 (03:11.143) Yeah, it it really is. And now what you've done there is really interesting and we'll get into the kind of the guts of it. But what struck me the most was kind of your philosophy or a line that I guess you're famous for, which is a service is something you receive, but an experience is something you remember. That really stuck with me when I read it. What it when did you kind of come up with that and kind of how did it how did it work in the situation you were kind of dealing with? Coley Norman (03:34.656) Yeah, I I I appreciate that, Russ. That's something that our team we're ultimately accountable for. We're accountable to drive a meaningful experience with those that matter most, those people being our our members and obviously our clients. And so we talk about as you just said, a service is something that one receives, but an experience is something one remembers. We're in the experience business, okay, and that's something we take to heart. We take it very seriously. we have this tenet that we operate by in client experience is that if you have an opportunity to lead, then you have a responsibility to lead. And so, you know, we have a responsibility to create and foster those positive experiences with those with whom we interact. And those are our members. we ultimately have a really high retention rate at Lavinity that is market leading for a reason. And it's yeah, we we do the products really well, we do the programs really well, but we do the people the best. you know, the people, let's cut that Russ. we do the products really well, we do the programs really well, but it's our people that makes the most difference. our people is is something that let's cut that too. Our people Russ is really what differentiates Lavinity from everyone else. And once we can get our colleagues and our fellow leaders to embrace that an experience is what matters most, an experience is what somebody comes back for. They want to experience it again, especially if it was a positive and lasting interaction. And so Lavinity and specifically client experience, we're in the experience business and we take that really serious. And every interaction that we have with a client, every interaction that we have with a member. Whether it's in a call center, whether it's on a phone call with a sales presentation, whether it's a follow-up on a RFP, at the end of the day, they're all an opportunity to create a lasting experience. And that's why I'm here. it is a legacy that we are really, really proud to have an influence of excuse me, cut that. Russ Fordyce 🏆 (05:46.84) Now you've now you've been you've been at Lavinity a few years now. you came into a situation that wasn't great. I I think it wasn't it wasn't an ideal situation, but what struck me is in your industry, in the industry I was in, I was in tech and telecom, those are very kind of mid level margin businesses. You have to do a lot of business to make money out of them. And insurance is kind of that same way, healthcare is that same way. And those industries really have tended to lean into the automation, lean into the AI, into the IVRs years and decades ago. And now everybody is running hard into making up those those AI experiences. You guys are kind of stepping back and go, let's make it more human. Tell us about kind of that decision and and kind of what led you to it. Coley Norman (06:33.025) Yeah, the the human approach is the most important approach there is. we we certainly want AI to complement what we do, but not replace what we do. And so, for example, I mean, we we you talk about AI bots all the time. We talk about how AI can supplant other different solutions andor processes. But and AI is is certainly beneficial and it's definitely going to be the ongoing wave of the future. But when you call into Lavinity, You're not gonna get an IVR. You're not gonna get an AVR, excuse me, a an AI bot, if you will. What you're gonna get is you're gonna get a real person every time. And that really resonates with our clients. Our clients love the fact that it's humanized. They love the fact that I don't know about you, Russ, but every time that I I call like a hotline to get help with something, whether it's something about my own prescriptions or whether it's something about my daughter's healthcare needs. I'm I'm the guy that automatically hits zero every time because I just want to get a live person. I don't want to have to hit a phone tree of another phone tree that might or might not be here. And so we eliminate all of that noise by just having a real person that answers the phone and says, Russ, it's Coley with Lavinity. I know that you need help. I'm here for you. Let's get to work together. And that's something we're really proud to do. and certainly something that resonates well with our clients. Russ Fordyce 🏆 (08:00.161) I think it's really gonna be a differentiator as we get into this, you know, AI world. We'll we'll definitely have a role for AI and kind of these, you know, kind of less human tasks. But when you've got to connect with somebody, especially in th these kind of situations that you're in where it's, you know, it's important conversations that you're having. you know, you really need to have a human involved in that. And it's not you know, there's nothing worse than going into those I VR trees and giving them all the information and then having the human come on and ask you for it all again. So Coley Norman (08:10.211) For sure. Coley Norman (08:18.37) Right on. Coley Norman (08:30.049) Exact ex exactly. No doubt. Russ Fordyce 🏆 (08:30.303) So I I applaud I applaud you guys for doing that. That's a really it's a strong move and and really one that's probably customer focused. So congratulations on that. Yeah. So when's when service goes wrong in these kind of benefit conversation, it's it's you know, it's not an annoyance. It's these are important conversation. you know, somebody might not get the medication they need. How does that reality change kind of how you lead it? Coley Norman (08:39.957) A hundred percent. Thank you. Russ Fordyce 🏆 (08:55.719) you know, this kind of team versus, you know, a telecom team or a regular customer service organization. Coley Norman (09:01.857) Yeah, for sure. I mean, I I think you you plan for the unexpected. There's not a standard day in client management, if you will. every day looks different, every client looks different. I think when you go back to one of your earlier questions about what did we do as a team when it came to I don't know if I'd call it reinventing client experience at Livinity. I would call it complementing what was already strong. but we prioritized. And you know, I think the first step in addressing an opportunity is recognizing that there is one. And we had many opportunities, to be honest with you, Russ. But I think that if I had to you know, call out a couple things to drive that experience with our clients, you know, you you look at our people, for example, and this is something that I'm really passionate about, and you'll probably pick this up in our conversation this afternoon, is that you know, many companies they hire based on a number of criteria, it could be education, it could be experience, it could be what have you, right? Et cetera, et cetera. And and yeah, I don't want to belittle those things. Those things are important and they're important at Lavinity as well. But here at our company and specifically in client experience, we recognize that you're only as good as the people that you hang around. And we're very purposeful about how we recruit leaders. We want people that have a servant heart. We want ones that will challenge the status quo. and frankly, we want people that put their teammates first. So I think that's priority number one when it comes to delivering a personable approach with our clients is making sure that you know who you're going to bat with. that's step one. I think another priority that I would call out is and and really is an enhancement to the body of work that we've already been building upon is making sure that we're data driven. if you are not a data-driven organization, you are a dying organization. Especially in as we look ahead beyond 2026. we we must know, for example, in data where we stand today, where we're headed, and how to bridge those two things together. And you can bridge those, Russ, by performance metrics, KPIs. and one of the things that I don't know if my team loves it or hates it, but we have these things called quantifiable retention benchmarks. So a quantifiable retention benchmark, especially in insurance or in healthcare, is Coley Norman (11:25.953) You know, it's it's one thing to shoot to or to look where you're shooting and understand what you're shooting for in terms of goals and objectives. It's another thing that when you look at how your team is performing versus another team, how you as an individual leader and contributor are comparing to another individual leader andor contributor. And so we put all of that out on the table with data. We look at a weekly dashboard. We have a monthly KPI dashboard. We have quarterly business review dashboards, you name it, but there's never a moment in time where anybody on our staff doesn't know where we stand because we feel very passionate at Lavinity that everyone, it doesn't matter what your role or title is, deserves the right to be to have that transparency and that look internally. to understand where we are and where we need to be and frankly where though they fall within that spectrum. and that you'll you what you'll see is that it truly does drive a strong retention effort. And that's why we have that 95% plus retention across our clients. Russ Fordyce 🏆 (12:30.713) Yeah, that's amazing. I I I know you guys launched that Know Your Numbers campaign. And what I really liked about it is you had client specific goals, not just your own goals in there. And that's what your team was tracking. You you as a marketing guy, as a customer service guy, you have this word experience, and it's a great marketing word. it's often hard to define, especially when you're talking about metrics. So, how did you make that Coley Norman (12:35.779) That's right. Russ Fordyce 🏆 (12:56.549) kind of experience measurable and walk us through kind of the metrics that you you are using. Coley Norman (13:02.113) Yeah, good question. I you know, it always starts with the voice of the client. You know, we we actually have what we call Russ a a VOC, Just cut that. Russ, it starts with our the voice of our clients. We actually have an annual VOC survey. So a VOC voice of the customer survey is that we constantly analyze what our clients think about us. Are we delivering to their expectations? You know, going the extra mile at Lavinity, that's our standard distance. And so if we're not doing that, where are we falling short and how can we bridge that gap? And so we ask them very provocative questions and and we're purposeful to make sure that they're open-ended because we don't just want a a yes or a no benchmark. We want to understand, hey, you know, where we doing well and let's continue to do that. Where we falling short, how can we immediately recognize that as a low-hanging fruit and then figure out a way to collectively conquer that fix? And so we survey a hundred percent of our clients. that actually goes out. It's timely that we're speaking today, Russ, because that actually goes out in June and July. And then we take that data and not only do we loop back with those clients and say, this is what we think that we heard and here's what we're doing about it. The worst thing about a survey is that you could take all this time and energy and and put up that upfront investment and get all of that insightful information from a very substantial book of business, 1700 plus clients of ours, and then not do anything with it. Right, that would be an insult to all the the hard work that goes into that. And so we look at every single response. We have a large team that surveys all of that information and then closes the loop with that. And so that would be what I would call our qual qualitative data, right? Russ. So, you know, what is the voice of the customer? What do they think about us? How can we bridge that gap if we do fall short in any particular area? And then also the things that we're doing well. Coley Norman (15:05.719) Let's continue to do those, but let's enhance along the way. I think the best relationship that you can have with your client is a consultative one and to make sure that you're leading alongside them, not out in front, not out behind, but certainly right there next to them as a true partner would. So those are some of the dashboards that we we talk about in terms of the voice of the customer. We also have things like monthly business reviews, quarterly business reviews, annual business reviews. We try to actually do those in person as much as we possibly can. There is no substitute for looking somebody in the eye just like this, or shaking their hand across a table and saying what we mean and meaning what we say. I always tell our team in client experience that old school is the new school. And you can't build and sustain a meaningful relationship over a text or an email. You just can't do it. We certainly can't do it at Lavinity. That's not what we believe in. And so we heavily invest in our relationships by complementing those data components, like those business reviews, like those performance dashboards, like ongoing KPI metrics. And then lastly, as I mentioned earlier, the voice of the customer survey data. Russ Fordyce 🏆 (16:17.515) Yeah, well, it's interesting because you you talk about the the voice of the customer and your team really focusing in on that. And I know that you you you have those team goals that are really customer focused, but when you made that shift away from kind of those emails and and you know text channels, whatever other channels you were using, and really did those in-person contacts and phone contacts, I imagine you got a a little bit of pushback from some team members, and like a a lot of look of confusion. Coley Norman (16:46.179) Sure. Russ Fordyce 🏆 (16:46.41) What's what surprised you as you rolled it out and how did your team kind of respond and your clients respond to it initially? Coley Norman (16:52.309) Yeah, yeah. There there was a lot of discomfort, I would say, when you roll out an initiative that big, right? but you know what? We've we're actively learning to be comfortable with being uncomfortable. And we tell our team all the time, my boss tells me, look, if you're not willing to get out of your comfort zone, we're gonna throw you outside of it. Because if you're in your comfort zone, you're not learning anything. And you're definitely not learning anything new. So we push our our team members, we hold them accountable and they do the same with me. And I'm very thankful for that. And so when you roll out an initiative, just like you talked about, Russ, when you have 1700 clients that you have to survey, you have to follow up on, you have to do that via phone or in person, there's a lot of work associated with that, but it's meaningful work. It's impactful work because you know that there is a direct return on investment when you hear from our clients. and that's something that we take really serious. And so yeah, we get some pushback every once in a while, but I think as long as you talk about and compliment the value proposition of why we're doing the work that we're doing, why it matters, and how it directly and how their work directly contributes to the bottom line, then at the end of the day, we all realize we're one team and we're only as good as the momentum and the strength of our team. And and we have I hope we get chance to talk about it because we have one incredible team at Lavinity. I'm really, really proud to be part of them. But yeah, we we embrace the the notion of being comfortable with being uncomfortable and I think we do it really well. Russ Fordyce 🏆 (18:25.974) Well and you describe the team as having that kind of an entrepreneurial spirit and that's kind of rare, especially in big teams with heavy process loads, is usually you want those teams to kind of more act like a machine, right? And you've got a a very predictable cog. And entrepreneurs are not predictable generally speaking. What does that look like on a Tuesday? How does a frontline team member though kind of know that they're empowered to make a call, to, you know, to do something a little bit different for, you know, for a client? How does that Coley Norman (18:44.003) Sure. Sure. Russ Fordyce 🏆 (18:54.805) How does that kind of work from the top down or from the bottom up? Coley Norman (18:58.945) Yeah, well I you can't build a successful program and or company from the top down. We have to build it from the bottom up. but one of the things that we we do from that foundational lens is that we don't let a title get in the way of progress. We just don't. I've never believed in that. I'm not one that's motivated by by things that I think a lot of other folks are motivated by, and nor is our team. if we want to get something done. That's what I love about Lavinity is that we address that what you ended up you you spoke about earlier, Russ, of bureaucracy, red tape. That that corporate dilemma of how much time does it take from the moment a customer asks a question to the moment that we can actually get them an answer. And Lavinity embraces the fact of let's not let's eliminate all that mess. Let's go directly to the source. If I can't get a hold of Coley, Then let's just go to his supervisor. It's no problem. And she's and she's wonderful. She's happy to help as well. And so I think when you talked about that entrepreneurial spirit, we have to be a jack or jill of all trades. And that's something we tell our team a lot. Be like, guys, look, if this was your company, and it is, this is where we call home when it comes to our professional workplace. how would you want it to be operated? Well, you'd want members to be taken care of immediately. You'd want clients to know that their voice matters. you want people to know that they're not that their their medication concern does not go unaddressed. And so, and then lastly, you want to make sure that there's a human element to it. And regardless of how much we've scaled to support our substantial growth of the last several years, we've never lost that human element. We've never lost the notion of talking with the real person every time. And that that entrepreneurial spirit and really going at to that entrepreneurial spirit, Russ, of making sure that we eliminate the red tape, just to make sure that we get the job done, whatever it takes, that's the Livinity way. and that's why I will continue to be here because I absolutely love our our mission there. Russ Fordyce 🏆 (21:08.508) Well, they must love you too. You've you've you've you've done an astounding job. I think I read somewhere that the policy benefit manager kind of success rate is about 70%. So, you know, kind of satisfaction rate. And I know you just mentioned I think you guys had over 90. So you're doing something right. and you and and you've done this all while kind of rapidly growing this team as you talk about too. And I know from my own personal experiences when you try to grow those teams, usually performance suffers a little bit. Coley Norman (21:25.315) Yeah. Russ Fordyce 🏆 (21:36.151) you're bringing new team members on and you're trying to get them, you know, indoctrinated in culture and trained on tools and everything else. But you actually radically improved your satisfaction while growing your team. And I think you've you've built this mentorship program around this that really helped with a lot of this. So tell tell us about that and how you got such heavy volunteer participation in it. Coley Norman (21:36.534) Sure. Coley Norman (21:58.252) Yeah, so I think that we recognize that today's today's account we we say today's account managers tomorrow's leaders and we mean that. we recognize that we have incredible talent from within. And there's equal talent, obviously outside of Lavinity's walls, but we gotta take care of our own first. We gotta take care of our own team. And we have these our values at Lavinity, they're called Lavinity CARES values. It's another acronym. But the C That starts with CARES values, stands for a collaborative culture. And our culture is extremely meaningful for us. I think that's why a lot of us, myself included, equally look forward to coming to work on Mondays versus spending time with friends and family on the weekends on Saturday and Sundays. Mondays are not a big deal because I I love logging in, I love doing what we're doing because we have such a collaborative workforce. my day starts and ends with my team, and that's non-negotiable. We have a daily stand-up meeting that we have every single morning where we talk about things like mentorship. We talk about folks that are within our inner circle, our client experience circle, that we need to make sure that we continue to support and foster their strive for leadership. Because again, at the end of the day, the biggest compliment to any supervisor is that your team has the ability, the vision, and really the know-withal tech to move up within the organization. That's what we want for our people. that's the biggest compliment to any leader is see your people move up. And so we do that through a mentorship program that we had some really nice participation and volunteership. some volunteers step up for that mentorship program, which is great, Russ. but one of the things that we do really well to drive that, again, that livinity, that's C in our culture, our collaborative culture, is that we have ongoing communication. So every day we meet with our team on a daily stand-up. Every day. And it's quite simple. we talk about simplicity sinks in, complexity kills. Let's keep things simple. And the things that we talk about for 15 minutes max, that's it. Because we don't, we want our we want our people to work with our clients, right? Not be you know, hand strong on meetings all day. But we talk about during those 15 minutes, what's the number one thing that you will accomplish before the end of the day today? Coley Norman (24:22.527) Number that's that's the first thing they talk about. And the second thing our leaders bring to the table is what's the number one barrier that's going to prevent us from accomplishing that number one thing. And so when you have a team of seven or a team of 10 or a team of 20, when you go around and you hear everybody's number one things, you have a really good grasp on the barriers that need to be removed and how to prioritize your day. And so I think that ongoing communication. collaboration and accountability is what makes our team so successful and we have one hell of a team. Russ Fordyce 🏆 (24:58.197) Well, it's it seems to be doing the you know all the right things. I I wanna step kind of up in the clouds for a minute, because we're really you've got this vast experience in these customer service organizations at Lavinity. We're in this kind of really kind of you know moment of time with technology and AI and automation. And I think every leader right now is trying to, you know, figure out where it belongs in their operation, having Coley Norman (25:15.298) Yes. Russ Fordyce 🏆 (25:24.831) Bet on the human side, where do you think automation really genuinely helps and where do you think it's kind of false economy? Coley Norman (25:31.542) Yeah, for sure. I think it helps with some things that are not so humanized. So what's really big and frankly absolutely necessary in healthcare is accurate reporting. And we have an amazing reporting suite, but it takes a lot of time to generate reports for one client, let alone 1700 plus clients, right? So I think AI. Report automation, report generation, those are things that we can use, as I said earlier, to not replace our work, but to complement our work, to make it better, to make it sharper, to make it more predictable. There's seasonality to a lot of things in healthcare. I think that's another opportunity that we have in healthcare to leverage AI engines and things like that. but the other thing about AI is that it changes so rapidly. That today's AI that you and I are talking about, Russ, will be different from tomorrow's AI. Because one, it's going to continue to learn, it's going to continue to evolve. Right. And I think in the in the 80s we we call that gosh, Skynet, or something like that, and Terminator, if if you will. And and here we are. We're we're living that right in today's environment where just things get smarter, they get more efficient. And people that are the doers get more nervous. They get more anxious. They look at the body of their work and like, gosh, am I going to be replaced in a year? Am I going to be replaced in six months? And that's not the conversation that we need to be having. The conversation that we need to be having as leaders is how do we leverage AI to make our jobs leaner, more efficient, more effective, and more impactful, lasting and driving a memorience with our clients. That's that's the conversation that we need to pivot to. And if we're not learning about AI and being receptive to it, then we're gonna be dinosaurs. We're gonna fall behind the eight ball. So our team recognizes that. And matter of fact, our our CIO, he he's wonderful. John is is very he's let's scratch that Russ. our our chief intelligence what is he CTO? Let's scratch that. I mean Russ, we have a chief technology officer, John Pramick, who he embraces the fact that AI is is not Coley Norman (27:44.866) tomorrow's solution. It is today's complement to what we do in healthcare. And some of the things that him and his team are doing with our reporting, with our client portal, with our member app. I mean, it is truly amazing and it's gonna be the tip of the spear as we move forward in in the healthcare space. Russ Fordyce 🏆 (28:03.805) Yeah, it is certainly a transformative technology. I mean, it's it's changing everything we do, right? And I can't imagine the the value that teams like yours will get out of it, just as you can, you know, you can access more data and have more context every conversation. So that's that's a wonderful thing. If if a customer experience leader in a completely different industry outside of pharmacy and healthcare kind of took one principle away how you run this team, what should it be? Coley Norman (28:08.81) Interrupt. Coley Norman (28:16.075) Yeah. Yeah. Coley Norman (28:30.761) gosh, at the at the risk of my my clients hearing me say this and the risk of my boss hearing me say this, clients are so important. And and at the end of the day, they they keep the the lights on, right? And and we take that really seriously, but they don't come first. They don't. if you don't take care of your team first, there's not gonna be anybody there to take care of the client second. So for if I'm speaking to a client experience leader, and I do. oftentimes in in other boardrooms and things like that, and they ask me these questions, I tell them, I'm like, put your team first. Okay. Let them know that the number one thing is that you have their back. Number one. It's not it should be non-negotiable and that they will return the favor. And so if we have one another's backs and we're operating through that lens, then everything else will take care of itself. especially around client support and ongoing leadership and consultation. Our clients are, I mean, they're they're the nucleus of what we do and how we operate. And client experience takes that responsibility to heart. But if we don't have the right team and if we don't have the right leaders and the right passion around supporting those clients, then it's all it's going to be all for naught. And so taking care of your team, that comes first. Russ Fordyce 🏆 (29:52.293) Holy, great words, great words for for sure. Your team obviously upr appreciates all that you're doing with the high retention rates and the great customer satisfaction. So you're you're clearly doing it right. And congratulations again on the award. It's really been a pleasure speaking to you. Coley Norman (30:05.823) Yeah, thanks, Russ. Thanks for having me and thank you for allowing me to to talk about the team because I I d I get tickled to death when I have that opportunity. So thank you for the platform.